Interview with Dwid Hellion (Vocals), Rob
Orr (Guitarist), and Jon Gates (Second Guitarist)
Questions by Jim Walkley
(Interview conducted in a basement
dressing room at the Neumo's venue in Seattle, the site of the last-ever
Undertow show on June 30th, 2012, which featured Integrity as a supporting
band).
Jim: What's cool about that S.O.B. album
is that it's a classic example of a Japanese band that doesn't really speak
English that well! One of their songs is
called "Let's Go Beach". We
could have called the zine that … but we decided to go with another song title:
"Don't Be Swindle". (Laughter)
Dwid: That's what I like about a lot of
the Japanese stuff. G.I.S.M. have a lot
of that going on, too — that "mixed-up talk" … I like that! Zouo does, too, with all of their
recordings. Do you like those groups as
well, or do you mainly like the more thrashy stuff?
Jim: I do! And I liked your cover of "No
Power" by Zouo.
Dwid: That was a pain in the ass, to get
the lyrics for that. (Laughter)
Rob: It's true!
Jim: (Laughter) Musically, I suppose it wasn't much of a
problem …
Rob: I played all of the instruments on
that, so I did it the same way that they did it — just one microphone on the
drum set; all of that good stuff …
Dwid: I didn't have the right echo for
"No Power", I think … I I used my C.B. radio microphone for that.
Rob: I saw that Shure now makes a trucker
mic.
Dwid: They do!? See, they're trying to steal ideas from me …
(Laughter)
Rob: I saw it at a Mexican restaurant
that I was at, that Shure makes that …
Dwid: I wonder what that costs? Probably cheaper than my C.B. radio! But, they probably have a better mic on it,
though.
Rob: Probably. It's like a 57, probably.
Dwid: You see, I bought this C.B. radio —
you know, exactly as the truck drivers use … and I modified the tip on it, so
it wasn't a C.B. tip — not an XLR; still a trucker format … well, actually, I
think I did re-solder on an XLR …
Jim: Do you remember that movie Convoy? And all the C.B.-related talk in that?
Dwid: Yeah! "Come on mighty convoy" … but this
one is special C.B., because now the C.B. truckers are trying to get
experimental with those rigs. And I have
a dial on it for echo. It sounds just
like Zouo does!
Jim: And that's how you recorded the
vocals for "No Power"?
Dwid and Rob: Yeah!
Dwid: … Zouo uses a "special"
kind of echo — I suppose you could say, "wrong" echo … I don't know
how to explain it. The only way I could
find to duplicate it was with that C.B. echo.
That worked, because it is that echo — it sounded similar … I was using
an old-style one. I had an old rack, at
one point, that had that feature on it — but that was a long time ago, so I had
to try and duplicate it; make it work …
Jim: Do you know if there's much of a
C.B. radio network still out there?
(Laughter)
Dwid: Well, I bought it on eBay, and I
guess truckers still use it … maybe that's why they do it, to spice it up — so
they throw echo on there. Like the
"Monster Truckers" … but I don't have that particular one …
Jon (Second Guitarist): After 9/11, the
FCC really cut down on the bandwidth, so there's now a lot of noise on all of
the channels. It's really hard to get
through. Truckers now don't use C.B.
radio primarily, either.
Dwid: What do they use now?
Jon: Cellphones …
Dwid: Yeah, I guess C.B. radio was more
for telling you that the cops were coming.
Jon: That's Channel 9. Channel 9 was the emergency channel. I used to get on there with a handheld —
Dwid: Channel 19 was the emergency
channel …
Jon: That's right —
Channel 19; I'm sorry. I used to get on
there, just singing, drum rolls …
Everyone: (Laughter)
Dwid: See, that's the one they use with
mine — all of that echo …
Jon: Right. If you get the right kind of signal, it
sounds like there's echo on it.
Dwid: When I was a kid, and they had
college radio on, they allowed anyone to call the station during a certain
program, and then they'd run your call through all of these effects … and then
they'd put two or three callers with those effects on there, to make it noisy
and weird — it was cool! Take acid and
call that up! (Laughter) If you recorded it and listened to it the
next day, it'd be sweet! I wish I still
had that tape. Maybe my son still has
it.
Jon: I had a handheld
C.B., and in my car — for awhile — I had a rotary dial that had thirty channels. Instead of digital, you would just turn the
dial. I had a pretty powerful antenna,
too. It was loud.
Dwid: You had it at your house?
Jon: I had it in my
car; it was like a radio unit that I had in my car.
Jim: I always wanted to learn some of the
lingo that they had. It's like in that
movie, Convoy
— the "bear in the air"; that was when there was a police
helicopter in the air. There were a
bunch of them, though. There were a
whole ton of them.
Jon: I had this
record called something like C.B. Radio Talk, and it had all these old
country songs that were about C.B. radio.
On the insert, it had the different codes; for instance, 73, 86 — what
all of those different codes mean. When
you'd see "bear", it meant "cop" —
Dwid: — a "bear in the air" is
a helicopter?
Jim: Yeah.
Jon: Yeah, this
record had all the different numbers and corresponding lingo …
Jim: "Steak on the grill" was
when you'd hit a cow with your semi …
Dwid: I've never heard of that one!
(A conversation takes place regarding
merch).
Jim: So, you guys played here — different
line-up, obviously — in 1993? I believe
it was at Ground Zero.
Dwid: I think we played at this guy Big
Jon's house. Ground Zero … (attempts to
recall) … perhaps we stayed at Big John's house after we played there. And the Snappers played there. [A reference to the band Snapcase].
Jim: I talked to one of the guitarists in
Heiress, Wes Reed, and he told me that he'd seen Integrity at Ground Zero in
about 1993 with Botch — in their demo period … last night I went to The Black
Lodge and saw the Undertow secret performance there, which was where Wes told
me that he'd seen Integrity play in Bellevue back in '93. Do you remember that at all?
Dwid: No!
Jim: He also told me that Integrity had
never played Seattle proper before, ever, in the history of the band.
Dwid: We did … it was something to do
with a guy named Big John — he was the promoter — and we either played at his
house, or stayed at his house; in his backyard, he had a stage …
Jim: Do you remember when that was?
Dwid: Snapcase also played …
Jim: Weird that they were out here,
because weren't they from Syracuse? [Correction:
Snapcase were actually from Buffalo].
Dwid: The tours just happened to cross
up. Snapcase happened to be around here
at the same time. Same record company,
too — but we don't talk about them! And
Snapcase were more of an "emo" band … you know, maybe that all-girl
band played with us as well … [A reference to the all-female hardcore band The
Doughnuts].
Jim: The Doughnuts played that show as
well?
Dwid: I think so … They were touring with
Snapcase …
Jim: It's funny … I did a zine in the
'90's, and one of the bands that I interviewed was Fall Silent, who were from
Reno, and their vocalist, Levi Watson, disparaged Victory Records in the
interview. I never sent it to him, but
somehow, Tony Brummel got ahold of that, and wrote Levi a personal letter
through the mail, asking him why he had all those negative things to say … And
I thought, "Who the hell is this guy, to write some letter
like this!?" [Tony Brummel is
the founder and owner of Victory Records, who at one point released Integrity
recordings].
Dwid: He's a crazy guy. He thinks it's okay to not pay bands.
Jim: I was really surprised by that
letter.
Dwid: He's a goddamn pirate — that
motherfucker. You know …. when iTunes
asked Victory to be on there, and he accused them of stealing — that is the pot
callin' the fuckin' kettle black, right there!
(Laughter)
Jim: All of your records from that era
are available for free download on Holy Terror.
Dwid: Yeah, because he was effectively
stealing those records from us, and putting them up on iTunes —
Jim: Did he try to stop you from putting
those up for download on Holy Terror?
Dwid: He can't, because he doesn't own
the rights to those songs. But, you
know, it was like he was tryin' to pull an O.J. on us — he had the lawyers, so
he could fight against us … and still refuse to pay us!
Jim: Let's talk about the new Integrity
song. I've heard a digital version of
your new track from the Gehenna split, and I really, really liked it. I don't yet own a physical copy —
Dwid: — We have the limited ones upstairs
…
Jim: Cool! I'll have to pick one up! I heard that the 7-inch sold out at Holy
Terror in about, what, two days?
Dwid: That was the pre-order …
Jim: On red?
Dwid: It was on pink. Somehow, the labels were messed up on the
regular ones. At that same time, we went
on a European tour — which we recently completed, just this past Sunday …
Jim: How did that go?
Dwid: It went great! We had a great time. What was it, three weeks? Yeah, I believe it was three weeks over there
…
Jim: Playing shows pretty constantly
throughout that time?
Dwid: Every day!
Jim: Every day!? Awesome!
Dwid: It was a lot of fun.
Jim: That was one question that I had for
you, Rob. There's so much talk with
Integrity that revolves around "the classic line-up" — I seem to find
it whenever I read something about the band, whether it's the Melnick brothers,
or Frank Novinec … and I guess the typical response to a question like that is:
Well, we don't really pay attention to what people say about that. At the same time, is it ever frustrating — or
annoying — that people focus so intently on that "classic" era of the
band, when the band is in fact still going, and when your contributions to it,
judging from that Gehenna split —
Dwid: — Well, we're all still friends with
those guys. In fact, Rob gave Aaron a
guitar a little while back, because Aaron broke his guitar —
Jim: So, then, it doesn't frustrate you?
Rob: No, it doesn't frustrate me. Like, here's the thing about it —
Dwid: — In fact, we partied with Frank
about a month ago …
Rob: Yeah … down in Florida …
Dwid: — Yeah, we were down in Florida,
playing there …
Rob: — I've been listening to Integrity
since I was, like, thirteen years old!
And those former members don't care about that issue. Which is more important than someone outside
of the band, commenting on it. It's
like, if someone doesn't want to listen to something that I'm doing because of
a pre-conceived notion of … "whatever" … you know? That's not going to upset me. We do it because we want to, not because
someone …
Dwid: That's not to take anything away
from the Melnicks. Great guitarist,
great bassist — and great songwriters … at a very important time for the
band. It was awesome to have them in the
band.
Jim: But didn't they create that
template, that the band has somewhat followed ever since? You know — I don't know how to describe it,
but that combination of mournful lead melodies with almost Japanese-sounding
chord progressions. The "Integrity
sound". Is it fair to say that they
had a role in creating that?
Dwid: — Well, yeah… some of it,
definitely. But, it's hard to say. For instance, the song "Judgment
Day" was written by our friend Scott Stearns, from the band that Aaron and
I had before Integrity, called Die Hard — that was the first Integrity song
that we ever wrote … but Scott wrote that.
We then played as Integrity later.
And the song "Jagged Visions Of My True Destiny," our friend
Bill McKinney wrote that.
Rob: He was in the band for three shows?
Dwid: Yeah … that was when we played with
Pantera, and … fuck, I don't remember …
Jim: Didn't you tour Europe early on with
Neurosis and Into Another?
Dwid: Yeah. Those were our first European shows …
Jim: I bet those were good shows …
Dwid: Yeah! All of those guys — they were a great bunch
of guys, and it was an incredible tour …
Jim: So, it doesn't really affect you at
all? Just to compare it to something
from my own life, it would be as if I was constantly judged as a creative
person — or as an individual — against something that had occurred fifteen
years ago … what about everything that's happened since that time?
Rob: Yes … if I were looking at it
through that lens, then — sure. But if
you knew anything about the band, or cared about the band, you would know that
it's a collaboration — beyond two people who haven't even been in the band for
some twenty-odd years.
Jim: But what about people who claim that
the "classic" line-up defines the band, and that today's Integrity
just can't measure up against that?
Rob: Well … what I'd say is this: for me
to try and sway someone's opinion — it would just be so … — well, something I
don't want to do.
Dwid: We don't give a fuck what anybody
thinks.
Rob: Yeah — to flail around and be, like,
"Please pay attention!"
Dwid: Yeah — we can't get up there on
stage and say, like, "Hey, www.check this out" — and, "Find us
on Facebook" … (Laughter) We play
the songs we like to play. We have a
good time. We sing about the things that
mean something to us.
Jim: It is what it is.
Dwid: Everyone else can fuck off!
Rob: Yes — it might be said: "that
answer is the veil we hide behind" … but it's the honest truth.
Dwid: Yes! "1993" … or "2003" — it
is always the same; people hated us then, people hate us now — they always hated
us! And to hear old people say, "Oh
yes … back then, we loved Integrity" — but everybody hated us back
then! Always the same.
Jim: "Hated" you!?
Dwid: Yes, every record we've come out
with … they hated it. And people always
try to lie and say they loved it back then — but they didn't like it.
Rob: Systems Overload was voted
Worst Record Of 1995 by HeartattaCk!
Jim: (Laughter)
Rob: That's what I mean! It's funny to go back and look at that stuff
…
Jim: Well, how do you think the material
has changed over the years? Listening to
the current records, it seems that the production is the main difference —
since all of those past records were mainly done at the Mars Compound, with
Bill Korecky. What I think is so cool
about the records today, is that it's sort of the ultimate punk rock vision —
you're producing it yourself, you're recording it yourselves, and you're
putting it out there yourselves … all at a cost that is fractional. And it seems like the ultimate realization of
the D.I.Y. ethic.
Dwid: Yeah. The only thing that we did was have someone
master it — to louden it up a bit. That
CD was a little too quiet.
Jim: I guess another influence that's
come into the records is black metal.
Dwid: Probably. But not, like, "arena black metal"
—
Rob: — Much more obscure than that stuff
…
Jim: More of a black metal
"feeling", I guess I would say ...
Rob: Yeah.
Dwid: Yeah. And, of course, "black metal" is
too vague of a concept, anyway. You have
these groups that are "black metal", but they sound very polished,
produced with just that screechy voice … And I'm not into that style. But I do like the weirder, more obscure
groups out of that genre. Bands making
tapes out in the woods; things like that … some of the French black metal
groups, the modern Portugal scene, Australia as well and some bands of that raw
nature …
Jim: Are you talking about records like
that one by Ulver that was recorded in a forest? [A reference to the Nattens Madrigal
LP by Ulver, a black metal-inspired band from Norway; the album was released in
1997].
Dwid: No — well, I think Rob might like
Ulver; I don't like Ulver, so much … what I mean is more like that band Black
Legions, from France …
Jim: Did you like Deathspell Omega? [A progressive black metal band from
France].
Dwid: I like some of it. Other parts of it I just found to be too …
experimental, I guess? Maybe too
"psychedelic" — at times. I do
like some of their records. However, my
friend Tyler Davis put out some of their records. He does Ajna Offensive. I grew up with him. As a child, he lived next to my mother's
house. And he was selling records back
then, even when we were fifteen years old! haha And listening to Charles Manson
music!
Jim: He lives in Oregon now? I always found it sort of funny that he
released so many obscure French bands, and things like that — yet he lives in
Oregon.
Dwid: Yeah! Even back then, he sought out wild
stuff. Different stuff. I guess you could say: stuff that people
wouldn't have known about … of course, back then, he was more into
hardcore. I remember, he had a distro
back then with the Project X 7-inch that came with that magazine … Wishing Well
records; stuff like that … this was around the time period of the later '80's …
Jim: So, like you, he came from more of a
hardcore background, but graduated into listening to more —
Dwid: — Well, we were punk. And metal.
Because, back then … you see, punk and metal: that is hardcore, the
fusion of that. Today, hardcore has
become something of its own. Back then,
though, it was a blend of those two genres.
It's like this … punk became popular.
Metal became popular. If you
combined those, then both of those groups hated you — it became fashionable
later on … but back in the late '80's, it was definitely not popular.
Jim: And speaking of more obscure
hardcore, I heard that one of the first metallic hardcore bands you ever heard
was G.I.S.M.
Dwid: First band I heard —
Jim: And so, if that's your first band —
Dwid: Right — I was lucky! Septic Death was the other one. I was lucky.
Jim: And that was a band without
boundaries, in a sense, because they played a form of hardcore, but dressed up
like …
Dwid: Yeah! Like Motley Crüe.
Jim: G.I.S.M. are just fascinating, in
that way. The first metallic hardcore
you heard was the V/A Peace/War double album?
Dwid: Yes, that was the first — but I had
some metal stuff before that, and I had some punk stuff on tape … but, I went
to buy a record with my allowance — I was thirteen years old? … This was the
time that Dead Kennedys had released Frankenchrist, and the cops were
cutting out — they were opening up the records and destroying that poster that
H.R. Giger had made for them … I was going to buy Frankenchrist —
really, only because the cops didn't want you to buy it … but, the record clerk
said I couldn't have it with the poster included, so I thought, "Well,
I'll buy something else" … The clerk suggested the Peace/War
album. And it came with a big book — it
was roughly the size of Maximumrocknroll, with the same printing style …
and it had G.I.S.M., and Septic Death — as well as all of the Pushead drawings
… and all of the bands on that comp, it was just an eye-opener …
Jim: Pushead was a big influence as well,
would you say? [Pushead, whose
real name is Brian Schroeder, was the vocalist of the legendary '80's hardcore
band Septic Death. He is also an
acclaimed artist who has created many well-known album covers and contributed
art for skate decks, among other things.]
Dwid: Of course! I think Pushead had a big influence on
everybody. People have never given him
enough credit. In fact, Pushead was the
reason that G.I.S.M. was on that comp! He helped push G.I.S.M. to people who never
would have heard them, otherwise —
Rob: — Pushead was a reviewer for Thrasher?
Dwid: Yes, Pushead wrote for Thrasher
… he had a section in that magazine called Puszone; he promoted G.I.S.M. there
— the only downside was, it was impossible to get those records. That was the only downside. And, you know, there was the second G.I.S.M.
record, M.A.N., which came with a special poster insert that you could
only get at certain stores in Tokyo — Pushead drew that poster. [G.I.S.M.'s Militaly Affairs Neurotic
LP from 1987 is sometimes abbreviated as M.A.N.].
Jim: And speaking of Septic Death — they
always sounded Japanese to me, even though they were from America.
Dwid: Yeah. Septic Death released a lot of stuff, just
them alone — but then it's compounded by the fact that Pushead is a great
fuckin' artist … those guys had a lot of creativity flowing.
Jim: And Pushead's record label, as well
… Would you say that his example of record labels was an influence on what
you've done with your own record labels?
Dwid: Yes, I would say so — the attention
to details; not following what's necessarily the "selling angle" …
just doing what you like. But, you see,
also … not to take credit away from him, but that had something to do with the
'80's — in a way, that was how everyone had to think … you know, I
"only" like this, or I "only" like that … no, you liked a
lot of different things. At least, most
people did. And there were spectrums of
things you liked. As I've said before:
the metal people hated the punks, the punk people hated the metal people — so,
if you liked them both, then everyone hated you! There was that element to it — although,
maybe that was more true in the place where I grew up … because, obviously,
Pushead liked metal — he worked with the Metallica guys …
Jim: That was a little bit later, though,
I guess.
Dwid: Well … it was in the '80's …
Jim: Later '80's —
Dwid: — Well, there are Septic Death
records that the Metallica guys are playing on!
Did you know that!? Where
Metallica is his band, and he's singing!
Rob: "Kichigai"?
Dwid: Yes — the "Kichigai" EP …
which means "crazy boy"!
(Laughter) ["Kichigai"
is a Septic Death 7-inch from 1988 that was released on Pushead's own Pusmort
Records].
Rob: Yeah, there's a Thrasher
interview I read where Pushead is interviewing Metallica before they did Master
Of Puppets —
Dwid: Yeah —
Rob: — And I believe he was the one who
got them that Zorlac sponsorship deal.
Dwid: I don't know that for an absolute
fact … but, yeah, it would seem like it … at that time, I believe both Pushead
and Metallica were living in the same area of San Francisco …
Jim: About the U.S.: do you think you'll
ever move back to the United States? Or
do you like Belgium too much to ever want to move back?
Dwid: It's hard to say — I mean, the beer
here sucks! (Laughter)
Jim: (Gesturing to the table and
feigning surprise) You mean you don't like Pabst!? (Laughter)
Dwid: (Laughter) I drink Duvel, Leffe …
but, I have a house in Belgium, so …
Jim: And your wife is from there …
Dwid: Yeah. She's from Belgium; however, it's much
cheaper to live over here in the USA …
Jim: Yes, but I remember what you said
about the landscape over there, and how it's so much more inspiring than
something you would see in, say, Cleveland …
Dwid: It's always great to see a fuckin'
castle! …
Jim: But, you think you'll be there for
the time being.
Dwid: Yeah; I'm not going to move. I built a house over there.
Jim: On a different subject, I always
wondered who that was, who's talking throughout "Drowning In Envy"
— ["Drowning In Envy" is a
track from Humanity Is The Devil, a lauded mini-album by Integrity
originally released in 1995 by Victory Records.
The "song" features a long sample of conversation from a
disgruntled former member of Integrity].
Dwid: Oh yeah — (Laughter)
Jim: I don't know if you can reveal that,
but I've always wondered that.
Dwid: It was our ex-drummer — and he is a
jealous, spiteful guy, but … we had fired him for stealing, and he did an
interview with a friend of ours, who did a zine —
Jim: — Was it an interview with Brian
Dingledine? [Frontman of the '90's anarchist metallic
hardcore band Catharsis and former editor of the now-defunct Inside Front
magazine].
Dwid: No, it wasn't him — it was another
guy … he interviewed him with good intentions, but he ended up saying,
"You know, I can't print this. You
just talk shit about all these bands; that's stupid." So, he called me up and described how this
former member had been talking shit, and I was like, "Let me hear
it!" And me and Aaron just laughed
at that interview. We then took it and
put it on my computer; chopped it up, and added sounds of, like, toilets
flushing (Laughter) — and different stuff …
Jim: And you put that into a loop at the
end: "People don't wanna know …"
Dwid: Yeah.
Jim: You did a zine yourself in the
'90's, didn't you? Blood Book?
Dwid: Yes: a "comedy" zine …
Jim: A comedy zine!?
Dwid: Yeah! … like a National Lampoon,
or a Mad Magazine …
Everyone: (Laughter)
Jim: Honestly!?
Rob: Yeah — seriously! Did you ever read it!?
Jim: I was researching the band Gehenna,
and there was a Gehenna interview in Blood Book. It was a really good interview.
Dwid: Thanks!
Jim: Yeah, you were talking to Mike
Cheese, and saying, "You seem rather composed today. Is something wrong!?"
Everyone: (Laughter)
Dwid: If you know the Gehenna guys … that
would ring true! (Laughter)
Rob: Yeah … that's always remarkable …
(Laughter)
Jim: How many issues of Blood Book did
you do?
Dwid: Oh … maybe … six?
Jim: Wow.
When did you stop?
Dwid: I just kinda ran out of steam on it
…
(Lori LeFavor, the owner of Infinite
Productions, appears at the dressing room door along with her adorably cute pet
dog. Infinite was the promoter of this
show, which — once again — was the final performance by Undertow that also
featured Integrity as a supporting band).
Dwid: Let's pause the interview for a
second. I think that's Lori. I'd like to say "hi" —
